Episode 283 – Can Unions Survive the Struggle Within? with Traven Leyshon

[00:00:43] Steven Grumbine: All right. This is Steve with Macro N Cheese. Another trip down labor lane, folks. We have a situation where we’ve been trying to present to you, the new face of labor; labor fighting back; labor taking its democratically owned roots and working together to build power internally and externally.

And big picture, building power across the nation, across industry, you name it. And today is not going to be any different than that, because what we’re experiencing now, in this episode, is when big old labor, the old school way of doing things, tries to fight back the counter revolution to the new revolution.

And what we’re watching is, “Hey, you didn’t vote well enough, because if you had, you would have gotten the results we want, so guys, the vote you did before, we’re going to scrap that and we’re going to go ahead and postpone another vote, to make sure that maybe we get the results we want as the old guard.”

And here to talk to me about this today is Traven Leyshon. Leyshon He’s been active in the labor movement, as a labor socialist, for more than five decades. He’s currently the president of the Green Mountain Central Labor Council, part of the leadership team of the Vermont State Labor Council, AFL-CIO member of the OPEIU 153, formerly active as a Teamster truck driver for the Teamsters For a Democratic Union, and as a rank and file UAW auto worker. I’m so happy to have you with me today, sir.

Thank you so much for joining.

[00:02:19] Traven Leyshon: Well, thanks for giving us the opportunity to get our message out.

[00:02:23] Steven Grumbine: Well, indeed. This right here is near and dear to my heart, because we are trying to find any and all ways to basically bring back labor to give ourselves a chance. And in this neoliberal order, labor has been pretty much choked to death. It’s nice to see a resurgence and it’s nice to see the Vermont AFL-CIO doing more than pay lip service to it.

You’re living it. You’re doing it. But you’re not up against just a bunch of powder puffs. You’re up against the big national. You’re up against folks that don’t want to see new faces, and new voices, and new ideas and new power arrangements. Tell me a little bit about your struggle.

[00:03:04] Traven Leyshon: I’ve been part of the Vermont State Labor Council since 1997, myself. I’m kind of a holdover from a period where, frankly, most union members didn’t even know that we existed as a Vermont AFL-CIO; didn’t know there was a state federation. And we were, maybe, almost beyond life support, for at least two decades.

Like the rest of the labor movement nationally, we were stagnating, while- I guess nationally- the organized labor movement was shrinking. Which is not a new phenomenon. I mean, I grew up in a union family and in the early 1950s, we represented maybe 35% of people who worked [working class folks]. Today, nationally, I believe the numbers are down to about 10%… and in the private sector, that’s even smaller.

Since 2019, things have really changed, however, in Vermont. So while the old labor movement, most of it has been stagnating or declining, we’ve actually grown rapidly, and that’s, in part, result of a new leadership. But that new leadership didn’t come out of anywhere, it came out of union members who had their expectations raised; who began to see labor movement, not just holding a union card and expecting that the union would be there, as some insurance agency to protect you when something unfair happened, but actually building a labor movement.

And one of the slogans that we look to is ” putting the movement back in the labor movement.” And we also have a profound understanding that democracy is power, that developing a member run, member directed labor movement is essential. Not just because it’s the right thing to do, but because it’s the only way to really build power.

And that’s what- living in capitalist America- that’s what you need, otherwise you’re suppressed and you become demoralized, and you see a working class, which increasingly doesn’t even know that it’s a working class, but is divided. And our goal is to develop an ethos of participatory democracy and to help working class people have a sense of self-activity, that what they do matters. What they do collectively matters in particular.

In 2019, there was a revolution. We had our first large convention. We have conventions every year, but we only elect a new leadership in the Vermont AFL-CIO every two years. We had our first large convention that rank and file members came to, and they were activated, particularly coming out of the American Federation of State, County and Municipal Employees.

And this was a new face. And at that convention, a new leadership was elected. Some of this is captured in the book. I know you interviewed David Van Dusen, who was elected top officer at that meeting, but it was really a leadership team that was elected. It wasn’t just about one or two individuals.

It was people who had a different vision of building a labor movement that wasn’t top down, that was bottom up, that would welcome and seek to involve members. And everything began to change in 2019 here.

[00:06:21] Steven Grumbine: Can you tell me what your idea of a participatory democracy is, within a union space, so that people that maybe are so far afield of what a union even is, might have an understanding of how that operates.

[00:06:35] Traven Leyshon: Well, let me contrast two models. One is the dominant business unionism model, which has dominated the labor movement in this country for many, if not most unions, since at least the late 1940s – 1950s.

And the result is that a lot of people who are union members, they pay their dues, they don’t know what union they belong to. Their children, their family members, just know that someone’s paying dues to the union. Kind of like how you would pay money to an insurance company, to take care of you in an event that something happens.

While that’s actually better- it’s better to be a member of a union that’s top down than not be a member of a union at all, the results have been pretty bad. There’s been a corporate offensive in this country that’s been highly successful, especially since the mid 1970s in weakening worker’s power.

Along with that, there’s been a certain level of demoralization and disengagement from believing in a social contract, believing that what we do together matters. Which is why we now have phenomenas like the growth of the far right, demagogically taking advantage of that situation.

Our understanding- and it’s not new to us, it’s been there since the 1800s as an alternative, it’s about bringing people together in activity, standing up to the boss, standing up to politicians who don’t have our interests in mind. And in fact, in this country, we’re really stuck with two parties. A two party system, which are both dominated by corporate money, by the rich. And we don’t have a workers party or an independent party in this country, which is actually a task in my view, that’s going to be absolutely necessary to turn things around. But in order to get there, you have to have millions of working class people believe that what they do together can make a change, can make things better. Not only for themselves and their families, but for working people in general.

Some people refer to that as social movement unionism, or bargaining for the common good. It’s all about changing the union movement into a member driven union movement. And concretely, what that meant for us, well first of all, bringing rank and file members to a convention where they elected a new leadership on the basis of a program, which was progressive, big picture program.

And then continuing to involve members in every way possible. Through communications, our executive board meetings are open to any union member, with voice, no vote. But voice is important, that’s something that a lot of union members never felt they had before.

There was a bureaucracy up there that would- lord knows what they were going to do- you pay dues to them, and they often have a privileged status, hobnob with mostly democratic politicians, with the powerful from another class in Washington, D.C. And instead, we put our emphasis on the actual activity, in helping working people develop their own self confidence and developing a greater sense of unity, that we are a working class, that we are a trade union movement that can actually build power.

And instead of everything going in the wrong direction, as it has, particularly since the mid 1970s, we can deal with big issues like climate change, and the vast ‘rich versus everyone else’ situation that’s really dominated the political culture in this country.

[00:10:02] Steven Grumbine: So, you guys are in the middle of some stuff right now. I mean, right here, right now. Tell us, about this struggle. What’s going on there?

[00:10:11] Traven Leyshon: Well, this is a struggle that’s been going on for well over a hundred years. As to whether or not you have a privileged labor bureaucracy, that might be making $300,000 – $500,000 a year, and plus perks, total health care coverage.

[00:10:29] Steven Grumbine: Jeez.

[00:10:29] Traven Leyshon: and they’re supposedly representing members, some of whom aren’t even earning a livable wage, a family wage.

[00:10:39] Steven Grumbine: You, internally, are dealing with the- I don’t know how to categorize it, other than, an attack on your democratically elected slate, by your national AFL-CIO.

There’s a recent article that came out in Counter Punch, which basically said your internal “democracy”, if you will, that you guys elected a slate, and the national is basically saying, ‘no, you got to keep voting, we don’t like the results of your vote.’

No?

[00:11:14] Traven Leyshon: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, ‘vote ’til you get it right’, that’s the slogan. [Yeah]

We’ve had, and developed, the most democratic culture that the Vermont AFL-CIO has ever had. We have put forward a progressive vision. We have switched the resources we have, primarily to helping working people organize, while at the same time building power that’s allowed us to win important legislation like the Vermont PRO [Protect the Right to Organize] Act. It facilitates working people being able to organize, without the level of harassment that they usually get from their employers.

And that’s something that, nationally, with the strategy pursued by the national AFL-CIO, [they’ve been talking about the Employee Free Choice Act, they’ve been talking about the PRO Act, nationally, and the reality is that lobbying and relying on the Democratic Party has gotten nowhere], in fact, we’ve looked primarily to the development on the support of a working class based party, the Progressive Party in Vermont.

Which is not to say that we don’t also, at times, support some strongly pro -labor Democrats. So, this didn’t sit well, this new orientation, [it’s actually a new strategy] and the national leadership realizes it’s a new strategy. Instead of relying on so called ‘friendly politicians’, we’re relying on members and their collective activity, and involving them in the decision making.

The result has been a lot of organizing in Vermont. So we’ve grown dramatically, and we’ve also taken stances that has made the National uncomfortable. Like, supporting Black Lives Matter, not just in a resolution, but concretely turning members out. Standing up for racial justice, having a perspective of everything we do is about trying to unite working people, so that we can develop our power, as a class.

And we’ve been remarkably successful, in four or five years, in changing that culture and relating to all of the young people now, many of whom are radicalizing and looking to join and build unions, but they don’t want to be bossed around by a distant bureaucracy, they want to be the union.

They think of themselves as the union. They think of their coworkers as the union, not some distant office somewhere. So we’ve been harassed, quite frankly, ever since 2019, by the national leadership of the AFL-CIO because we’re pursuing a different strategy.. They threatened us in the past, held back funds that were necessary for us to function.

Now after we had, I would say, the most democratic, effectively run election at the largest Vermont AFL-CIO convention, in probably at least 25 years, maybe forever, they didn’t like the results. So they looked to an opportunity to replace the top key leadership positions, with more conservative union leaders who don’t put that much of an emphasis on the members, on a member run and a member activity, but rather look much more to lobbying and developing relationships with Democratic Party politicians.

So they’ve ordered a new election. They didn’t like the results. They ordered a new election, it was supposed to be the end of this month, and they’ve been getting some pushback though. From us and from other grassroots oriented trade unionists and allies [not just union members] around the country.

And that’s getting stronger. And so far, they’ve actually postponed that election. We don’t know until when, I’m sure they’re not giving up on replacing the progressive- and I would say, quite frankly, class struggle- leadership of the Vermont AFL-CIO that was elected by our members, with a more conservative, cautious orientation.

So that’s what this is about, and we’re looking for support around the country. And not just for us, we want to help be part of developing a bottom up, powerful labor movement that understands that democracy is power. It’s not just about your relationships with some politicians in Washington D.C.

[00:15:31] Steven Grumbine: Very powerful. So, can you take me through what the strategy is, in fact, to make that happen? I mean, I’m happy to be a cog in that wheel, a voice to allow you to get the message out, but do you have buy in? And who are you talking with? Who are these groups?

What is the strategy, if you will, for making that happen?

[00:15:52] Traven Leyshon: Well, we’ve developed allies around the country, certainly, even on the leadership level of national unions. There’s been a disgruntlement on the part of some leaders who understand that the current business union model, relying on “democratic” politicians, is just leading to the labor movement becoming weaker and weaker. And frankly, people understand the importance of democracy. That’s a growing trend within the union movement in this country. I mean, for example, there was a Labor Notes conference that we attended in Chicago recently, there was 4,700 people who showed up.

They’re all people who want to develop Class Struggle Unionism, who understand that our labor movement has to be member driven and democratic to the core. The only reason there weren’t more people there, was that the venue couldn’t deal with more people, so they cut off registration a full month before the conference was even held.

There are other state federations and central labor councils as well, as of course, rank and file currents within unions all around the country. And not all of whom are in the AFL-CIO.

In this country organized mostly by young people, self organized, who don’t want to be part of a bureaucratic, powerless, dying organization, we have relationships that we’re developing. And as the word gets out in the sympathetic labor press, and more broadly through podcasts like your own, we’re developing, I would say, a strong current that’s going to put pressure on the national AFL-CIO.

And in our view, we want to help organize that current into something that’s in it for the long haul. It’s not just about saving a progressive class struggle orientation in Vermont, it’s about developing a bottom up labor movement across this country, that can actually deal with the reality that working people, at best, our living standards have stagnated.

Things like health care costs are totally… it’s just becoming a tragic situation for us, it’s been a tragic situation for a long time. But other issues, like, there’s a climate crisis. Who’s going to develop that power? Who has the potential power to meet things like that? The environmental movement, God bless them, but the environmental movement just, hasn’t had the power to do it alone.

It’s going to take the development of mass organizations that involve people that do education. In other words, a powerful working class movement that’ll work with social movements, like racial justice movements, pro-immigrant movements; that’ll work with environmentalists who understand the need for a truly just transition to deal with climate change; who will actually take a stand around issues, like the tragedy that’s developed in the Middle East.

Israel’s slaughter, quite frankly, of the people in Gaza, and the vigilante violence that’s developed in the West Bank. And that’s been facilitated by every Democratic and Republican administration, since 1948.

So, we need a labor movement that’s a big picture movement, that’s bottom up, that can develop the power of working people, so that we can start to turn things around in this country.

Before it’s too late.

[00:19:34] Steven Grumbine: I want to read something to you from the [Counter Punch] article, because I find it piggybacks on something you had said a little while ago. It’s at the very end of the article. And it says, “a four time delegate to the national AFL-CIO conventions and past labor council officer, Leyshon remembers when we used to have a hell of a time just getting a quorum for meetings, if foes of the reform in the VSLC make Liz Shuler assisted come back later this month, no one at the AFL-CIO headquarters will be worried about that problem, because in their view, organizational inaction is better than the progressive dynamism on display in recent years.”

And this speaks to that neoliberal consensus, the uni-party consensus, if you will, of the capital class that runs our country, that runs those parties. And ultimately, is the gatekeeper to the golf trips and the five star dinners of those $300,000 a year union officials, that aren’t really serving your needs.

[00:20:38] Steven Grumbine: Let me just rain on this momentarily. I am desperate to see you succeed. I am desperate to see anyone that is resisting this hellscape, to build power for the working class and for we the people, to get whatever support they need.

I’m very powerless to do much of anything other than lend my voice and platform, but even that isn’t significant. What you’re trying to do is really important, but you have devils in the hen house. The coyotes are guarding the hen house, in that you’re not dealing with a fair deck in your own organization. How do you rout out that kind of- I don’t know what the right word for it is so I’m just going to use the word- corruption, okay. Because their job is to support you. Your job is to support labor. But it seems like their job is to support candidates, which by extension, makes them a part of the Democratic Party.

I mean, they’re not really part of your union. Their allegiance lies not with the membership, but with the political class. How do you un-wedge that? They’ve got to have a million rules and stipulations, or parliamentarians, or some other nonsense to block democratic actions. How do you deal with it, for real?

[00:22:00] Traven Leyshon: Well we deal with that by having [what I call] a rank and file strategy. Helping working people raise their expectations, understand the importance of collective action. This should not be ‘you’re on your own.’ It was the kind of the yo-yo culture, you’re on your own and yo-yo economics, that dominates this country. I guess you use the term neoliberalism, that’s really all about shifting power to the ruling rich, to the billionaire class in particular.

[00:22:31] Steven Grumbine: Privatization, ruling class, all of the above. Yes, sir.

[00:22:36] Traven Leyshon: We believe in providing training for rank and file members. We developed a culture where we stand in solidarity with contract fights and organizing campaigns across Vermont and across the country. We may not win in the court of the Executive Council and the top current leadership of the national AFL-CIO.

We are sure going to try to win. We have allies, even on the Executive Council, who I believe will stand up and fight with us, but it’s mostly the potential power and developing a current that understands the importance of class struggle unionism, that, doesn’t follow the business union model, which is all about collaboration with the employer class.

[00:23:18] Steven Grumbine: Help me understand your vision of class struggle unionism. I’ve spoken with Joe Burns, who wrote the book on it. I’ve spoken with David [Van Deusen], obviously, I’ve spoken with Jeff [Tchaff Reisberg] here recently. I’ve even spoken with [Flight Attendants Union President] Sara Nelson. I’m curious, what is your definition of ‘class struggle unionism’?

Because we have people that served in federal unions for government employees, and they think this whole concept of class struggle unionism is ‘pie in the sky’ by and by, but to me, it is the end game. Without having that, the rest of us who are not necessarily working in places where we have access to unions, we’re highly dependent on groups that do have unions. And we’re highly dependent on that kindling turning into a raging fire across the country and reinvigorating the strike, and reinvigorating labor, to not allow what has been going on for the last 40 plus years to continue a minute longer.

We’re looking at you all and we’re saying, ‘Hey, you guys, help guide us, we’re scattered atomized singles, you guys are collective power, help us help you… what do we need to do?’

So what does Class Struggle Unionism mean to you?

[00:24:31] Traven Leyshon: It means, first of all, that it’s the interests of our members and of the working class, more generally, that we look to. It’s not about developing a comfortable relationship with the employer class. That’s another strategy. That’s another model. It’s not about giving member money and supporting the lesser evil politicians, who really answer to the billionaire class primarily.

That’s certainly true on a national level. So that’s why it’s difficult. Class struggle unionism is about developing working class solidarity. It’s about developing the activity and the vision of working class people. It’s about being willing to strike, that’s the ultimate power, that’s what capital listens to, is our ability to withhold our labor. Now in this country, particularly since the Taft-Hartley Act was passed in 1947, most of the really effective things that you can do, are illegal. Like political strikes, for example.

Take for example, there’s a lot of unions, particularly we see that in the more campus based unions, who would like to engage in political strikes, to demand a ceasefire in Palestine and Israel. Or political strikes to strengthen the demand for universal health care.

[00:25:57] Traven Leyshon: Those things are all illegal, that kind of solidarity across unions are illegal. So class struggle unionism is one which says we are about developing the power and changing the relationship of forces, so that we can do what’s necessary in order to develop workers power. Striking, political strikes, if necessary. For example, we anticipated, in the last presidential election, that Trump would probably lose, and that he wouldn’t admit that he lost. And he’s been cultivating a far right movement, [some of it armed] and that they were not going to go along with the idea that the majority of Americans voted for the “lesser evil” and elected Joe Biden. We started to organize for a political strike, for a general strike, if you will, in Vermont. It wasn’t just a resolution that we passed, we were actually organizing for that, in the event that something, like what happened on January 6th, was successful. The national AFL-CIO freaked out.

They told us we couldn’t even vote on that. They told us that they would put us into receivership if we actually acted on those sorts of things. And we took a stand. We said, ‘okay, we’re going to take the risk’. Because the defense of, whatever level of democracy exists in this country, is something that the working class has an interest in.

So we were ready to defy the national AFL-CIO, and to defy the laws which say you can’t have political strikes. You don’t have to really worry about the law, as long as you have the power to win. And that’s what we’re about developing, providing training for rank and file members, to supporting on-call organizers, who’ve helped create workplace unions across the state.

We run things we call the worker circles, already in three cities in Vermont, on a regular basis. Anyone can come to those, you don’t have to be a union member. In fact, most of the people who come, are interested in ‘ how do they deal with problems on the job?’ or ‘how do they deal with problems in their community?’, or maybe ‘ how could they go about organizing a union?’

So, class struggle unionism is about developing solidarity, and the power to win, and exercising the right to strike, whether it’s illegal or not part of the tradition. That’s a perspective that the national AFL-CIO has been hostile to, frankly, ever since the national AFL-CIO came together in 1955.

And that was only possible after driving out the left led unions from the CIO.

[00:28:58] Steven Grumbine: When I had Sara Nelson on this program, she made the claim, and apparently she makes it anywhere she goes, that “there are no illegal strikes, only unsuccessful ones.” And I think that speaks to what you’re saying there, in that if you have the power and you’re able to wield that power, ultimately, the concept of an illegal strike vanishes quickly.

What, does that power look like manifested?

[00:29:26] Traven Leyshon: Well, in her own union for example, part of the CWA Flight Attendants, at a time when the Trump administration was engaged in [essentially] defunding the government, from anything and everything that the far right in this country despises, she said “we, in our union, are ready to take strike action, we can shut down the airline industry.” And lo and behold, that wasn’t an empty threat. And because it wasn’t an empty threat, the Trump administration backed down. So, that’s an example. Can you imagine what would it take to win universal healthcare? To actually drag this country into, the 20th century, no less the 21st century, to have a healthcare system, which was at least as good as universal healthcare systems in the majority of other countries?

What would it take? Well, it would probably actually take the development of a working class party, or a mass party, where unions, progressive unions, would unite with social movements to change things.

[00:30:26] Steven Grumbine: I understand the AFL-CIO to be the union of unions, and that the Vermont AFL-CIO is the union of unions for Vermont. What is the AFL-CIO footprint, in terms of your version of class struggle unionism, your version of bottom up union organizing, versus [more broadly] the business unionism that reigns supreme across America today?

[00:30:55] Traven Leyshon: Well, our model of unionism, basically being on the idea that we need one big effing union. So, we don’t really care whether people who are organizing, are organizing an independent union, or they’re an independent union, like United Electrical Workers, or in Vermont, the NEA. The National Education Association isn’t part of the Vermont AFL-CIO yet. We extend our solidarity and our support for strike action, or whatever else is necessary.

When the Vermont state employees were facing significant cuts in their healthcare benefits and other issues that were important to them, when they weren’t part of the Vermont AFL-CIO, but we helped rally with them to push back. Quite frankly, the Democratic Party dominated legislature and the minority Republicans, together with the Progressive Party, which actually has some traction in the state. It’s the only really viable third party, on the state level in the country, unfortunately.

And so, we extend our solidarity to people who are in unions, that aren’t part of the AFL-CIO. We extend our solidarity to Black Lives Matter. We extend our solidarity to environmentalists and environmental action, as long as it does not hurt working class people. And there are ways to deal with a climate crisis that do not victimize working class people. The notion of a just transition is a fine notion, but unless there’s worker’s power to force a just transition, it’s not going to happen. And we’re never going to meet the climate crisis without that.

[00:32:32] Steven Grumbine: Can I jump in on that? I don’t want to let that one go, but that’s an important thing. So, as part of our macroeconomic work, we’re trying to bring about knowledge of a job guarantee. Which, when you listen to Jeff Reisberg, job guarantee was part of that package, a very important part of that package. Job guarantee is something that people can jump on and jump off as needed. It’s a right to a job. It’s a guaranteed job at a living wage. And the macroeconomic impact of that means that nobody would ever have to be unemployed.

So, as a worker, a striking worker at that, you would have the opportunity to roll over to the job guarantee as a means of supplementation during a direct action. Unless of course, the government does what it frequently does, which is side with big business and prevent such a thing.

But when we think about a green new deal, we often talk about a ‘just transition’ and within that green new deal, the just transition would be those folks working dirty jobs, be transitioned and trained and paid a living wage, or paid their current wage even, to move over into green industry or industries that are no longer harming the planet.

What is your idea, your concept, of a just transition?

[00:33:52] Traven Leyshon: What we really want is a worker-led ‘just transition’, a just transition that understands that working class people in this country have been taking it on the chin for a long time. That there’s a lot of insecurity out there. People know that their kids are not going to have as good of chance as they had.

For example, my first union job, and it was, [well, it was whatever it was] 1968? You had the perspective that you’re taking a job and you would have it for 30 years or 25 years, so you could retire with a decent pension.

Well, that’s no longer true. People feel insecure. That’s why when environmentalists talk about a ‘just transition’, people think it’s an illusion, that it’s not going to happen. And the only way that there can be a just transition, is if it’s fair to people who are going to lose their jobs, and it’s actually going to have the support of people.

Maybe they work in the fossil fuel industry, a lot of those are very skilled jobs, and they’re family wage jobs, with decent benefits. There’s got to be a real alternative, where people are not going to have their families victimized.

It’s got to be, yeah, I think your idea of a full jobs economy, where everyone has a right to a decent job. And maybe one of the ways we get there, is we have a shorter work week with no loss in pay. It’s not an old idea, it’s actually done [to some degree] in some other countries.

[00:35:20] Steven Grumbine: I’m a, dare I say, an advocate, or I’m an activist in the macroeconomic space and I follow a school of thought called modern monetary theory, and work hand-in-glove with a lot of MMT theorists around the world.

And one of the things that frequently, not just unions, but rank and file voters [and others] get very- when I say very wrong, I mean, they get it really wrong. They’re carrying the water for Ronald Reagan and Margaret Thatcher without even realizing it. And that is the concept of, they believe it’s their ‘tax dollars’ paying for these things. And they never stop to ask where the first dollar came from, which is from the government.

The government created these things, by law. This is the government’s unit of account. It creates dollars freely, like a Sbarro’s pizzeria giving you a 50% off coupon. They don’t need those coupons to spend on things, they give them to you for redemption. And that’s the same way it is with the US government. So the idea that the US government could not subsidize, and even straight up pay for, a just transition for those workers that you’re talking about.

For example, let’s say a certain industry is going to go completely out of business, let’s say it’s coal miners. Let’s say coal is going to be done away with [period], for whatever reason, forever. The idea that those workers, who take great pride in their work and identify as human beings, that they’re coal miners, is a tough hill to overcome. However, the ability to pay them a living wage, or pay them the wage that they could be paid, it’s a complete farce that we can’t ‘find the money’ that we’ve got to raise taxes to pay for things.

You got the very nice white knight that says, “I don’t mind paying more in taxes, so people can have X, Y, Z.” And it’s like, I get it at the state level, at the Vermont level, or at the Maryland level or at the Pennsylvania level, but the federal government literally is the currency issuer. And we’ve been swept aside and forgotten this for so long.

Margaret Thatcher’s favorite line, famous line, that “there is no such thing as public money, there is only taxpayer money.” And therefore, they have used that to great precision to discipline the working class through austerity measures based on, “We can’t pay for it. We can’t find the money. We can’t afford it.”

Jeff, who is an avid MMTer as well, he and I, that’s one of our deep connections, he is personally trying to bring about knowledge. So is Sara Nelson. She’s worked hand-in-glove with Stephanie Kelton, who was the leading voice of MMT, at least in the political class, in the United States.

Have you all ever broached this with your own internal group? I think this is something that would be such a vital tool to use, to say “you can’t lie to us anymore, the things you’re saying are a lie.” During the pandemic, that money that they used to keep people whole, the paychecks that they gave, the payouts that they gave during the pandemic, that was new money.

That wasn’t taxpayer dollars either. So, if you think about that as a sort of de facto ‘just transition’, from eliminating dirty jobs or whatever, this is a tool that I believe the unions, if they internalized it and recognized it, would help making that national effort for class struggle. It would empower it in spades.

And I believe me when I say, this is not a gotcha, you may not even know this stuff, a lot of people don’t. That’s why we’re doing our activist bit. That’s why we’re out there telling people these things, because they use fear. This is like what the union bosses do, they use fear to make you toe the line.

Well, the government- and the neoliberal class, and the academic class, and the new consensus, that DC consensus- they use austerity as a weapon to discipline labor, on behalf of the capital class, that keeps you desperate and unable to organize your people.

So, the idea of a job guarantee with a just transition, paid for by the federal government, locally administered, democratically administrated at the local level, that right there, to me, represents real hope and real power. And you add that with your union organizing and your ability to mobilize, my God, the things we could do.

Anyway, I’m just dreaming there and I wanted to put that little thing in your head there to think about, and also to get your feedback.

[00:40:05] Traven Leyshon: We’ve actually had some discussions about MMT- [what is it, Modern Monetary Theory?] internally. As an individual, I’m agnostic, but one can look back on the economic crisis, the financial crisis, the housing crisis of… what was it, 2008?

[00:40:28] Steven Grumbine: ’08 and ’09, yes…

[00:40:28] Traven Leyshon: When the financial system was threatened,

[SDG: it bailed out the banks]

both, it came up with an incredible amount of funds to bail out the financial industry, but they didn’t bail out homeowners. Didn’t bail out working people.

[SDG: No, they didn’t.]

So, whether one understands [or agrees with] MMT, we know that the billionaire class, the powers that be, both the Democratic and the Republican parties, will come up with funds when it’s in their interest to do it.

They just are not willing to actually come up with funds to make things, that working people need, possible. And my attitude towards MMT, and so much else, is that until we have the power to force them, to win real concessions, to create a new economic model- I mean, frankly, I’m a socialist, but it would be a step forward if we had a guarantee of, jobs for all, livable wage, family wage jobs for all, [there was legislation, not all that long ago, well some decades ago, it was, what was it, the Humphrey-Hawkins?]- but the implementation of a full jobs economy, a guaranteed job… it’s just, we didn’t have the power. We still don’t, we’ve got to develop it. It’s an organizing issue.

[00:41:48] Steven Grumbine: Yes. Agreed 100%. I just want to make sure that everybody goes to battle with all the facts. When you think about what I’m saying, me and you are simpatico, 100%. I’ve been trying to tell, even within my MMT space, don’t tell me to just go source the vote, vote for a few more progressives.

We’ve already seen that the system’s captured by the elites. So we have to have power, period, full stop, end of story. And that’s why we need our rank and file to understand, “hey, did you know that when they say they don’t have the money, they’re lying to you?”

“Did you know that when they tell you this stuff is going to bankrupt the nation, they’re using that to scare you?”

“Don’t let them scare you, let’s unite and fight, let’s rise up, and take this shit back.”

And to me, as a person in this space, and yet, not really in your space, I feel like, I have to yield the floor and allow you guys to figure it out. But I feel like I need to present this information.

And I know that there are people that are actively working in that space, desperately trying to leverage the understanding of MMT to empower labor, to have that unification, to bring about the class struggle, to bring about the answers to the policy cases, that are presented as ‘oh, we could never do that, where ever will we find the money?’

“Liar!” You’re finding the money every other day to bomb the kids in Gaza. Don’t tell me you don’t have the money to make workers whole. Don’t tell me that, it’s a lie. So to me, at this point in time, I feel like if we’re fighting with half the knowledge that we need, to fight back against the capital order- that is literally putting its foot on the neck of labor, both organized and disorganized labor- we, as a working people, as a working class, as socialists, quite frankly, have to understand how this system operates, to be able to fight back.

And what you guys are doing, I’m so envious of. I mean, the struggle you’re in, is righteous. Even if you don’t win, you have to fight it, right? You have to fight it.

And I think the more resolve you show, the more emboldened other workers will be to join you, really, truly, not just on the surface, but really, materially join in that struggle.

Your thoughts.

[00:44:18] Traven Leyshon: Well, I agree entirely. There’s so much demoralization and disengagement, particularly among working class people and poor people, and that’s understandable. A lot of people have totally given up on the political system, for good reason.

We need to develop the sort of unity, and the self confidence and the vision, which is really only possible through developing collective action. Those are the first steps, in my view, to dealing with things like an economy that works for all. Or dealing with the crisis of climate change. Or dealing with these wars, where so many billions of our dollars go, and they’re not going to a good thing.

I mean, right now they’re going to, what in my view is, a genocide. So yes, I do agree it’s about power. It’s also about developing a vision and an alternative.

[00:45:11] Steven Grumbine: Yes. There was a guy I used to listen to on the radio, years ago. He’s called the Bible Answer Man. And for anybody that was once a right winger and has moved to the left, or anybody that’s still a person of faith, he always used to say, [and I hold on to this, even though I don’t share his political views] he said, “always have an answer for the hope that lies within.”

And I think that if you’re not part of your own plan, you’re going to be part of someone else’s plan, and you may not like it. What are your thoughts, in terms of setting the agenda versus the agenda being set for you all?

[00:45:47] Traven Leyshon: Well, that is precisely why our goal, as a member driven labor movement, our executive board meetings are open to all union members. That’s why we increased the number of delegates that can be respresented at conventions. That’s why, fundamentally, we just believe in ” democracy is power.”

So, we reject this, really illegitimate- which is what the national leadership is trying to do to us- forcing a revote. It’s a sham election with a predetermined outcome. I won’t go into the details, but we will stay in this fight. It’s not just us in Vermont, it’s currents around the country, [and particularly among young people] that are joining in and organizing unions, and doing amazing things. Like the UAW 4811 out in California, who went on [what was really, implicitly] a political strike, over the issue of Palestine.

They were able to do it as an unfair labor practice strike. Which covered them, theoretically, with regard to the law. But of course, the boss class and their servants, they don’t necessarily follow the law. So they had found some judge, who didn’t even have the power to impose an injunction, who imposed an injunction. I mean, totally outside of the bounds of what the law says.

it’s that, new generation, which gives me hope. It’s the allies around the country who’ve been really fighting for a democratic labor movement, for a class struggle labor movement, for years.

And this is really the first time, I think since the early 1970s, that we see real hope, and the possibility of a fundamental change, even if we don’t win in this sham election that’s being imposed on us, sometime, whenever it’s held [in July or something]. Even if we don’t win on that level, we’re not giving up.

We’re going to be there. We’re going to be on the executive board. We’re going to be continuing to organize, help organize, workers and bring them in, and to train people to be active.

[00:47:54] Steven Grumbine: Traven, you’ve been amazing. Obviously we could have covered a lot more territory if we had days and weeks to talk. But in our tight confined window here, let’s make sure you get your final point out. What would you like everybody to take away? I mean, if we didn’t cover it already, what are your parting words?

[00:48:13] Traven Leyshon: That change is both possible and necessary, within the organized labor movement. Which needs to grow and needs to develop power. And it needs to do that by helping its members become more engaged.. Having the real power through collective action, and through strikes, when necessary. And through developing a social movement unionism, that looks out for allies outside of the organized union movement. Looks to working with environmentalists, who understand the need for a worker-led just transition, or is willing to work with economists, and others, who can help develop alternative ways of dealing with, what is really, an ongoing economic crisis that’s been in this country for decades and decades. The result being the imposition of vast inequality on the majority of working people.

So, we’re in it for the long haul. We’ve got allies. We look to people to, frankly, bombard the headquarters. We’ll be sending out, messages. People can sign letters to the Executive Council, to President Shuler. But most important, we are part of developing a new, revitalized labor movement.

And in the long run, we will win, because it’s necessary.

[00:49:32] Steven Grumbine: I love it, man. Do me a favor. Send us any links or any necessary backing documentation. We’ll include that in our extras for this episode so that others who are interested can go through and jump on board. Take the call action to heart and maybe write those letters on your behalf.

[00:49:53] Traven Leyshon: We will do that. Thank you for your perspective and for giving our voice a chance to reach more people.

[00:49:59] Steven Grumbine: You got it man. I appreciate you so much. Folks, my name is Steve Grumbine. I am the host of the podcast Macro N Cheese. We are a part of another organization that I am the CEO of, called Real Progressives and we are a nonprofit. We are a 501c3 and we live on your donations. Your donations are tax deductible.

So please consider becoming a monthly donor at patreon.com/real progressives. And you can also go to our website, realprogressives.org, under [donate], go ahead and donate there, please. By all means. no amount is too small, but we really need your support. The services that we run on, the ability to distribute, just advertising, etc., is unbelievably expensive. And we’re just a volunteer driven organization.

Please take a look in the extras and the transcripts. Also there is a Tuesday night, Macro ‘n Chill, every week. Go to our website and you will be able to find the link. It is a webinar where we discuss these podcasts together, break them down in 15 minute increments and have a really, really good community building session. Join us, this Tuesday night at Macro and Chill. You are all invited. Definitely listen on Saturday mornings to Macro and Cheese.

And with that. My name is Steve Grumbine, with my guest Traven Leyshon. We are out of here.