Episode 278 – Radicalizing the Youth: The Significance of Campus Protests with Bryce Greene

Macro N Cheese – Episode 278
Radicalizing the Youth: The Significance of Campus Protests with Bryce Greene
May 25, 2024

 

[00:00:00] Steven Grumbine: All right folks,

this is Steve with Macro N Cheese.

Today’s guest is Bryce Greene.

Bryce Greene is a writer,

a student,

and an organizer based in Indiana.

His work focuses on media and geopolitical analysis

and has appeared in Fairness and Accuracy In Reporting

and other venues.

He’s currently pursuing a PhD in informatics

and he was most recently arrested

during some of the campus encampments

that have been put in place by students.

I mean, just amazing uprising

that I haven’t seen

even in history books since,

I don’t know,

maybe we saw a little bit of it during the Iraq War

and kind of

the blowback that we saw from that.

But it’s been since Vietnam

since I’ve seen something this incredibly invigorating

and mobilizing.

Bryce recently was arrested

during these protests on campus

and I wanted to bring him on to tell his story.

He covers geopolitical issues

and so

he’s very up to date on Gaza

and I’d like to be able to get

a little bit of background on the whole thing.

I mean, most of us that have been following it…

there’s a whole group of people out there

who have buried their head in the sand

that this is not happening.

And that old saying that

if you ever wondered what was happening during the Holocaust

it’s happening right now.

This is what you would be doing,

you would be just ignoring it.

And it’s good to see students rising up

it gives me some hope for the future.

So with that I’ll bring on my guest.

Bryce, welcome to the show, sir.

[00:02:15] Bryce Greene: Thanks for having me.

[00:02:16] Steven Grumbine: Man, when I saw you get arrested

I was like “Oh my God, this is real.”

Like, it’s real.

You’re seeing it.

Just like the Gulf War part one,

when you turned on CNN back in the day

and you see the tracer bullets flying and all this stuff,

and it’s like ‘Oh my God, we’re really at war.’

And it’s like ‘Oh my God, we’re about to have another Kent State

here in the United States.’

It’s just horrible.

It looks like thugs

as they attacked the Black Lives Matter protests

and so forth in the past,

and now here we’re watching it happen

in Ivy league schools no less.

Oh my God!

Does this mean something will finally change?

Tell me what got you involved in the campus encampments

and these protests?

How did you get involved?

[00:02:56] Bryce Greene: Yeah so, I’ve been involved in the struggle for Palestine

and the struggle to get America to end support for Israel

for a few years now.

As part of the leftist education that a lot of people get,

a lot of people get it far too late in life.

But I was lucky enough to start mine

around sophomore year of college,

and one of the things that you learn about the American empire

is this support for this country called Israel

and the oppression of these people in Palestine.

And the more and more

you read about the broader history of empire,

the more and more

you realize that Palestine is really a microcosm

of all of these trends and forces

and all of these internal logics and processes

that define American empire.

And by studying Palestine

you can learn a lot about the system we are in, at large. Dismantling these myths that you have of empire

is really the most important thing

that someone can do in their life.

You learn about all the evil being done in your name

how they lied us into war after war.

about Vietnam,

they lied about the Gulf War

and the terrorist wars in Central America.

They lied about Iraq,

Afghanistan,

lied about Syria,

Libya.

But throughout all of this

they’re lying about one war that’s been going on

for almost 80 years,

and that’s the war of the Zionist

state, Israel,

against the people of Palestine.

And this is different, in a way,

because not only does it involve all the death and destruction

that is hallmark of American empire,

is that that there’s a major organized constituency in America

aimed at making sure that this war persists

making sure that no real solution has ever been found.

And making sure that America,

this machine,

keeps supporting Israel no matter what involves not just propaganda on the basics

and not just like

making marketing material

doing all these conferences and whatnot,

but it extends to academia.

They have professors

who do nothing but write fawning stuff about Israel

and about how awful antisemitism is.

Media organizations,

some of whom will just straight up hire Israeli intelligence assets.

I’m specifically thinking of the New York Times in this,

but the general assumptions that the media class makes

about what the world is,

what America’s role in the world is,

what Israel’s role in the Middle East is.

You always hear about this ‘only democracy in the Middle East.’

So why are the kids fighting against democracy?

All of these myths contribute to a general climate

in which the path of least resistance for institutions

is to support Israel and support Israeli apartheid

that’s really been the status quo since the 1967 war,

the Six Day War

that started this phase of the occupation.

But every brutal Israeli incursion into Gaza,

or Lebanon,

or in general

shakes that support a little bit

so in 1982, you had the invasion of Lebanon

brutal images coming across Americans television screen

eventually Ronald Reagan tells Begin and the Israelis to stop

and they take stock of what they have

there’s a big blow against public opinion

you have the Sabra and Shatila massacre

further blows against public opinion

but of course the lobby persists

then you have the the first intifada

again, more support for Israel’s declining

but the lobby is still entrenching itself in American politics

and then you have the second intifada

and then of course

the Lebanon War in ’06

you have Cast Lead

Protective Edge

all these things keep happening

and the movement for Palestinian rights strengthens

but at the same time

the lobby is strengthening as well

to defend against this shift in public opinion.

But over the last few years has been a major sea change

because- for a number of reasons

not only has the oppression gotten worse and worse

Gaza was unlivable before October 7th

before Operation Iron Swords [Swords of Iron] it was still unlivable

and people are starting to notice.

But also the media environment of younger people is changing

so that the gatekeepers

that traditionally frame all of the facts on the ground in Palestine

that would frame the Palestinians as terrorists and Israelis as victims,

the gatekeepers are being circumvented by all these platforms

now I don’t want to sound like a social media triumphalist.

I don’t want to sound like…

I’m not naming my child Facebook or anything.

But these tools allow people to go around the traditional narratives

that this Israel lobby has sought to cement in the public mind.

And so now

people see people getting blown up

they see homes getting bombed

neighborhoods getting wiped off the map,.

They no longer have these media figures

to tell them why it doesn’t matter

that it’s just collateral damage

to tell them that Palestinian lives don’t matter

or that it’s all necessary for some greater good.

Those narratives, they still exist within the mainstream legacy press

and they influence public policy

but for the younger generation

those narratives are consigned to exactly where they should be.

You know, the garbage.

Because people are able to more authentically

engage with the material in front of their faces.

And so young people are waking up to the reality of all this

and again, this was true before October 7th.

And so then October 7th happened

where we have all these narratives floating around

about what happened on October 7th,

about who is Hamas and what do they want

and why did they do what they did.

There’s all these narratives about what happened during that day;

you heard about the 40 beheaded babies,

the horrific stories of mutilation that were amplified

that later turned out to be false.

But this propaganda machine whirred into high gear

and some people

like myself

were worried that this was it

that all of the gains

that were made over the years of watching this brutality

might have been undone

because this propaganda campaign was just so overwhelming.

But again, the gatekeepers weren’t able to keep the lid on the story

more people than ever

are alive to the problems of Israel,

and more Americans than ever

are alive to the problems of America’s role in supporting Israel.

And so, you really have this moment where

I’m talking to people who are organizing with us

and they say that they had vaguely heard about Palestine beforehand

but they really didn’t feel the need to dig deeply into it.

Like most Americans

don’t need to know what’s happening outside of the empire’s walls.

But they’re learning.

They’re learning about all the evils that Israel does

and by extension

all the evil that America supports,

and by extension

all the evil that the empire comprises of,

and they’re being radicalized.

There are people who,

college freshmen wanting to be business majors or entrepreneurs.

And then after October 7th,

after watching Israel’s brutality,

after watching the lies,

they are radicalized.

They want to be organizers

they can’t stand that the world is like this

and they want to rise up and change it.

And so, that’s the state of affairs with activism today

after October 7th.

And you’re seeing it culminate in these encampments,

in all these young people in Columbia

Harvard

UT

UCLA

all these schools around the country.

I think it’s well into the hundreds,

170 something,

but all these students are joined together

finding new ways to combat and analyze the systems of oppression

that they’re suffering from

but also complicit in

and so, you have an interesting moment in history

that’s being seized right now..

And so, as young people start to move away

from the pro-Israel bipartisan consensus

they’re also moving away from this general sense of militarism,

this general jingoistic framework

in which America can do no wrong

and are the World Sheriff.

And they’re also moving away from the traditional political system.

They’re no longer saying that ‘okay, well we’ve got to vote blue no matter who’

‘it’s Joe Biden, if we don’t get Biden we’re going to get Trump, and Trump’s going to be horrible’

but then they see their friends getting beat up by police under Joe Biden,

then they see a genocide being committed under Joe Biden,

and that doesn’t square with the message that they’ve been given their whole lives

about…

‘vote blue no matter who’

‘Trump is the biggest threat’

‘ the Republicans are the fascist ones’

‘but Democrats are the good guys.’

That’s all being shattered

right before our eyes

and institutions are reacting to that. They’re pretty open about how TikTok

has allowed people to circumvent the gatekeepers.

I’m not praising TikTok,

I think it should be banned for a whole host of other reasons.

But lawmakers are pushing back.

They’re saying we’ve got to restrict the way that people can acquire information

and they’re sending these goon squads in

to evict these students from peaceful encampments

just to show them that

this is what happens if you rise up.

This is what happens if you tangle with the highest echelons of power.

He had Netanyahu explicitly say that Biden needs to deal with these encampments

because they’re threatened.

They wouldn’t be so concerned with these encampments

if they weren’t threatening.

If they didn’t signal a shift in American policy

that could signal a shift in how we treat and view Israel,

they wouldn’t be concerned if that weren’t a real possibility.

That should be motivating to a lot of people to keep these up,

to keep these encampments up,

to expand the way that they can organize.

Don’t just stop here.

If encampment becomes less effective

don’t be married to it.

People are learning how to adapt their tactics,

they’re learning how to problem solve in new environments,

we’re training a new generation of organizers

that will then go on to shape the future of America

and of course, the future of Palestine.

[00:12:35] Steven Grumbine: That is amazing

the way you put that.

Go back to the 2016 DNC

and remembering the big protests of how the Democrats appeared to do Bernie wrong.

And all the folks that earnestly put their hearts on their sleeve

and put their money out there for that campaign

only to have the DNC crush it.

And what you ended up seeing was infiltrators. Of course

you saw infiltrators then,

and then during even Trump’s inauguration

as we had Occupy Inauguration

you saw infiltrators come through there, breaking windows,

doing things that would make the righteousness of the protests look bad.

And now what do you see?

You see naked aggression towards students by pro-Zionists pigs

quite frankly, literally going and violently attacking students.

And the police and the media are putting their hands behind their back

kicking stones and looking around like, “what? I don’t see anything”

I mean, this is beyond just the standard police state US

Brownshirt tactics.

We’ve gone to a whole new level

where the Proud Boys that we were so worried about under Trump

are basically the Zionists coming and attacking these students.

What are your thoughts on that?

[00:13:54] Bryce Greene: The comparisons to traditional aesthetics of fascism are impossible to avoid.

I mean you have police standing by

while… I’m perfectly comfortable calling the Zionists fascist

both in Israel and in America they’re pro-fascist.

A racial apartheid system

They support a genocide based on annihilating the improper race

and building a city on the graves of the annihilated.

I mean , that’s what they believe.

And there’s been multiple attacks against students by Zionist agitators

and very little response from the police about it.

Even at our own encampment here at Indiana University

there are multiple instances in which Zionists would verbally abuse

and sometimes physically harass students on the ground,

and there’ll be little response from the police.

And so once again

this is part of that education I was talking about.

People are learning about these institutions

that are ostensibly designed to serve them and protect them

and to make their lives better,

aren’t actually there for them.

They’re there to enforce some sort of abstract calm

defined and decided by the people in power.

That’s why at Indiana University

the president decided that a tent on a field

was such a danger to the university

that they had to call in

not only a bunch of university police

but also they had to call in state police

complete with armored vehicles,

body armor,

helmets,

shields,

they had a chopper circling overhead,

they had assault rifles,

there’s shotguns,

grenade launchers,

they had a drone in the sky.

And then they put a sniper on the roof overlooking everything.

Like, does this make sense to anybody?

No, but again,

it taught the students

and it reinforced this lesson that the military force

that is embodied in our police organizations

are not here to protect us,

they’re here to serve the powerful.

And so, when we put up that tent

such a big threat

they sent in an army

not once, but twice

They sent an army twice.

And it was only after massive pushback from the faculty

and the staff

and the constituency of the university

did they actually stop sending in these armed goons.

But around the country it keeps happening.

And around the world it keeps happening.

So, what are we supposed to make of our so-called

‘democratic institutions’ of liberal democracy

when this is the response of institutions of power

when young people [students] are protesting against

one of the worst humanitarian disasters,

one of the worst crimes against humanity in the 21st century.

When students are trying to stop a genocide

you beat them with a stick.

What does that say about our democracy?

How can you square this idea

that we are on the good side of this global divide,

that we’re on the good side of the new Iron Curtain.

I’m sure you’re familiar with that almighty map

known as ‘the world’-trademark ,

in which you have the US

Europe

and Australia

and Japan.

And you know, they’ll vote to recognize Hamas as a terrorist organization,

or they’ll all vote against making water a human right, or something like that.

It’s that group of countries that are showing their illegitimacy on the world stage.,

How much longer can the world accept this idea

that the US

and its satellites

and its empire

make all the world’s decisions

when they only represent around like 14- 15% of the world’s population?

Countries like China

and Russia

and Iran

and India,

all of these countries are taking note.

And of course the third world,

they’re taking note of how American marketing material is being undone,

is being usurped by American behavior.

And countries and populations

that might have once looked at America with some positive gaze;

over the last few years

between the ‘global war on terror,’

the Ukraine crisis,

and now Gaza,

they’re having a different view.

And countries like Russia and China

are providing a new pole in the world

that these third world countries can turn to

as they notice that America is beating their students for protesting genocide,

or trying to force countries to implement sanctions on Russia,

or trying to bolster its allies in preparation for encircling Taiwan.

The world is noticing that,

they’re saying ‘that’s dangerous, we don’t want to go that way.’

And in some small way

the student movement is contributing to that

by forcing all of these contradictions to be displayed in full effect

and by pushing the culture of America to the point

where they might be more adequately able to deal with some of the problems that are coming.

All these political problems

like, is America going to continue to be insane

and supporting Israel

and being unpopular

and dominating the world?

Or are they going to change?

One path leads to destruction and conflict and war

the other path has a chance at peace and stability.

And what we do now,

what the students are doing now;

how people are reacting to this Gaza situation,

the genocide,

this unfettered support for Israel.

How people are reacting to that

determines which path America is going to go down.

And based on what I’m seeing,

I’m more and more confident

that we’re going to have the ability to actually change the world.

[00:19:19] Steven Grumbine: Hillary Clinton came out the other day

and basically did what she always does,

opens her mouth and out comes a pile of insanity.

And she basically crapped all over the students.

So did Biden.

They’ve each made the students out to be the bad guys.

I mean, this is our future,

this is the children that will inherit this country.

And interestingly enough

we know that you can be poor black or brown and have problems

and complain for 20-30 years,

the minute you start hitting wealthy white people,

and let’s be fair

these Columbia’s of the world

and UCLA’s and stuff like that,

I mean, this is where people with money go

this isn’t where the poor kids go.

This is where people with money go,

and all of a sudden

they’re getting bashed.

Do you think that this willl bring about the kind of awakening?

I hate that it requires a class difference like that

to make any difference,

but that is traditionally what it’s taken every time

is for the precious rich kids to finally feel the pain

and then it becomes a thing.

Your thoughts.

[00:20:33] Bryce Greene: This is

as any Marxist will tell you

that it requires these contradictions to cause these events

that push major changes

or ensure that major change is possible.

People are roused by when things happen.

And that is a tragic truth about the human condition

is that it takes a lot of death and destruction to spur change.

But the question for organizers

and activists

and people who are committed to radical change is

how are they going to mobilize the people in their community

when one of these events happen?

When there is a shock that awakens public consciousness,

when there is one of these moments that you can seize

to bolster your organizing capacity,

bolster your institutions,

and set the stage

and groundwork

and foundation for a better world.

And that’s the real question.

A lot of people are going to be waking up

and the question is:

what can organizers do to put them to work

and to channel that energy to a cause

or a process that could eventually lead to the radical change

that we talk about all the time?

And that seems to be where a lot of previous organizing has failed, right?

I keep saying ‘imagine if there was the organizing capacity we have now, before October 7th.

What could we have pulled off?’

Well, it’s a hypothetical, you’ll never know,

but you can only ensure that when the next thing happens

that you’re organized and ready to go.

I mean, like

the genocide in Gaza has been going on for decades.

The deliberate starvation of children

the ‘putting them on a diet,’

the de-development,

the bombing of the airport,

the not letting materials get in.

They’ve been destroying that country for a while

and after Cast Lead,

after Protective Edge,

there were flare ups of organizing.

But imagine if they had been able to solidify in a bigger way.

I mean, the only reason we’re able to mount the response that we have been

is because decades ago, people had been doing work.

So we need to carry on that tradition

in order to

again, ensure that this will be a moment that is a significant turning point in history.

We can’t let it go and let it pass.

And that’s what this moment means, I think.

And with the students

and especially with the global moment

where you have the rise of China,

Russia,

and the BRICS bloc in general,

you’re going to have to develop these political movements

and these political institutions

to ensure that America doesn’t blow up the world

as its hegemony is being challenged.

To ensure that there will be some sort of soft landing from empire

and that the people who are crapping on the students;

the Hillarys,

and the Bidens,

and the Blinkens,

and all of them,

don’t get to dictate the future.

[00:23:19] Steven Grumbine: You know, January 6th

has been a big part of our national discourse

now obviously since Trump yielded to Biden.

And that entire process became [I believe]

a precursor to the tactics that would be used

and the rationale that would be used

to crack down on leftist movements and leftist organizing

such as we’re seeing now.

It seems like even the additional IRS agents

and the potential for stalking down political activists

as targets for audits and things like that,

as well as places like Cop City

around the country.

And the fact that these police are not Mayberry RFD

we don’t have Barney Fife with a six shooter.

The folks you see going into a raid in Iraq during the Gulf War

you see them wearing the same exact gear here at home, today,

with the same weaponry

the same everything.

How do you think that the event of January 6th

and all that surrounds that

has been leveraged to impact leftist movements

as we move forward?

[00:24:34] Bryce Greene: Well, since 9-11 there’s been a lot of inching,

a lot of jumping towards the dystopian surveillance totalitarian state.

When you had the warrantless wire tapping

and the global war on terror

and the Snowden leaks told us a lot more about the integration with big tech companies.

And of course you have this development of counter-terrorism,

these imperial forms of violence that are typically directed abroad

they’re now directed inside at the country’s own population.

During Occupy Wall Street for example

the FBI was surveilling peaceful demonstrators under their counterterrorism protocols.

And of course, when you say that someone’s a terrorist or potential terrorist

that allows the security state to implement more drastic measures than they normally would,

it allows them to convince the bureaucrats to sign off on all sorts of draconian surveillance.

And so that was at Occupy Wall Street,

that was over a decade ago

[Indeed]

Since then we’ve seen the definition of Terrorist expand,

we’ve seen the capabilities of the security state expand.

When Biden came into office, right after January 6th

his administration put together a list of new categories that they would call Terrorists.

And I can’t remember the precise name of this report

but it included things like-

people who were

radical climate activists,

or radical anti-capitalist,

or anti-imperialist.

These identities were provided in a memo to the FBI

and the Department of Homeland Security

to guide them in their domestic counter-terror activities

and so, if they’re using the January 6th pretext

to expand the security state into ways that-

or into areas that have nothing to do with the people who did January 6th,

to expand it to leftists,

well then it pretty much shows that this moment

this protest moment

is going to be surveilled in a similar

if not harsher fashion.

And we can tell that there has been some surveillance

and that there has been some involvement of counterterrorism forces.

I mean, the very fact that they’re calling people terrorists

and they’re alleging links to outside actors

means that they’re trying to build a case

for using some of the foreign intelligence surveillance on domestic people.

Biden just renewed FISA.

What FISA allows

is for foreign intelligence targets-

if they have contact with an American target, a domestic target-

then the rules that prevent Americans from siphoning up all that data are relaxed

because this person is now being included in a foreign intelligence data collection operation.

And imagine this diaspora of Palestinians of Arabs,

of all these people around the world.

Of course they’re talking to people who are outside the country,

so it’d be very easy to turn those tools-

even with the proper bureaucratic channels- inward.

And so that, I think,

is the tip of the iceberg that activists should be worried about.

They should be protecting themselves

and then, of course

all this information is being channeled through these fusion centers

and these joint command task force centers all across the country

where the NSA and all these larger intelligence agencies,

these foreign intelligence agencies,

are collaborating with and exchanging information with the FBI

and local police departments.

And even some corporate surveillance.

And so you have this infrastructure built for massive surveillance and massive repression,

and we’re seeing parts of it being activated against these students.

All in the service of supporting genocide,

of supporting the Israel lobby domestically,

of supporting the state of Israel in their advancement of imperial goals,

and it doesn’t bode well for the future.

Gaza, what’s going on there is evil and destructive enough.

But the way the empire is headed

there could be a larger war soon enough

that dwarfs the conflict in Gaza.

The US is trying to provoke a war in Taiwan

the same way they provoked a war in Ukraine.

They have soldiers six miles off of the Chinese coast on Kinmen Island.

Why would they do this, if not to provoke a war?

This is what’s in our future, if we’re not careful enough.

[00:29:19] Steven Grumbine: I think about what you just said, in particular

because these are a chain of events.

But they’re really not a chain of events

they’re kind of a modus operandi,

they’re kind of the MOP, the Method Of Procedure of empire.

We go in, destabilize a region

by putting military assets in places that we know threaten their sovereignty

or, quite frankly, it’s a hostile move.

And then our media apparatus covers it up by

basically, being the mouth for the CIA and the rest of the deep state.

And then the people that listen to The View

and other normie stations

repeat this ad nauseum at the water cooler

and it becomes the way it is.

I’m interested in seeing…

what, have been your experiences with talking with various students

and others in this activist space?

Have you seen the lights go on?

Like, have you actually been there for that conversion moment

where they go from ‘normie’ to wide awake?

[00:30:19] Bryce Greene: It’s more of a gradual process with some people

One of my favorite kinds of interaction

is when you see that seed being planted.

Is when a lot of students would come up to the encampment-

while school was still in session-

and ask us ‘what are you guys doing?’

This is America

so you’re able to turn on, tune in, and drop out.

You can set your social media filters

to the point where you never see a lick about Gaza

or the rest of the world at all,

so you have a lot of people who are completely insulated

and isolated from what’s really going on.

But they’re curious about why there are a bunch of kids camping in a park on campus,

and they’re curious about why the campus decided to send in an army to evict them,

and they’re curious about why the kids came back.

So they’ll ask about

What’s going on in Palestine?

What’s going on in Gaza?

What’s going on in Israel?

And you can explain it to them, even if they have no basis

you can say:

“oh there’s a group of people who wanted the land

and they kicked off the people on the land

and for the last 80 years

the people who got kicked off, are fighting back

and that’s what October 7th was.”

They understand that on an intuitive level

and the people who have tuned out,

they understand…

Again, this generation trusts the traditional gatekeepers-

and the mainstream legacy press

and opinion makers-

they trust them a lot less than previous generations have.

So they’re open to

when people like me-

or other other protesters-

are explaining the situation to them.

We explain how Israel is oppressing Palestine

we explain how this is only possible with American weapons

and political and diplomatic support.

We explain all that, and they’re like-

‘well, that’s pretty bad; that’s awful’

they don’t necessarily know how to process all of that information.

It can be a lot.

Oh Yeah

I remember the first time I learned that America was evil.

It was a lot.

But you planted the seed,

and with any luck

they’ll be able to go forth and research

or at least have a different perspective when they’re given the traditional narratives

about American superiority

and moral clarity

and purity

and whatnot

blah, blah, blah…

We’re seeing a lot of people go on that path.

In fact, some Zionists.

Some people from the pro-Israel groups on campus,

they’ve come by,

stumbled through in the middle of the night

looking for trouble.

But we’d deescalate, we don’t want to start anything

So, we just talk to them.

We’d say ‘Oh, what do you believe?’

‘What do you think we believe?’

And you’d be surprised at the number of people who come away being like:

‘well, I misjudged you guys’

‘I didn’t know that you guys weren’t a bunch of terrorists’

‘I didn’t know that this was happening in Palestine’

‘I didn’t know that Palestinians couldn’t go on the same roads’

‘and I didn’t understand how they had to do checkpoints.’

So, again

that’s one of those moments that gives me hope

that even though people have been propagandized-

in the most brutal way possible

to accept some of the most brutal things possible-

the indomitability of the human spirit says that

they can be made to understand, sometimes.

And we’re seeing that light go on in some people,

that’s an impact we’re making.

And some people who might’ve understood these things

but not necessarily seeing what they could do about it,

we’re seeing the light go on for them.

They’re saying that

“not only do I know that there is injustice

I don’t have to sit back and watch it happen and cry at night.

I can go out into the street and fight,

I can go out and do something:

organize my community,

talk to my neighbors,

make the change happen.”

What is the saying?

Be the change you want to see in the world

People are learning that is possible

and that they can do that.

[00:33:49] Steven Grumbine: That’s amazing.

One of the things that

i think, really radicalized me in this space

and I’m older, I’m 55

and so, some of these things-

I’m a late bloomer

I wish I would have started learning the things you learned

at the age you learned them-

it took me a whole lot of Republican thinking

a whole lot of right wing living

the way I was raised,

the community I was in, etc.

So, it’s been a life of breaking away from things I thought I once knew

and relearning the way things really are,

and having a dialectical perspective on things.

One of the things that jumped out though

is what Zionism is all about.

Kind of like

why they do what they do

and more importantly

what do they do?

And some of the issues of just

literally snatching a Palestinian’s home and claiming it for their own, illegally.

Like, this is part of the deal

this is what we do.

The settlements

The absolute dehumanization of the Palestinian people.

But obviously it’s more in your face

with bombs falling and seeing children mashed up

I think the last count

before they destroyed all the hospitals

was something like 15,000 dead children

I am sure it’s significantly more than that

now that there’s no one there to really count

or take care of that stuff

[00:35:08] Bryce Greene: Definitely

Aabsolutely

[00:35:10] Steven Grumbine: 20,000 – 25,000 dead children

I don’t even know how you can stomach that. But take me prior to the bombs.

Obviously bombs have been a part of this since day one

so it’s hard to do that.

Just, the business as usual mindset of Zionism

the whole dual citizenship.

You’ve got people that aren’t even Jews

that are claiming their right to-

as Protestant Christians-

to be Zionist

and these rich kids

going from New York City and Soho, out to Israel

and suddenly, they’ve got their own home

something that they’ve taken from a Palestinian family.

Talk a little bit about that whole experience

[00:35:50] Bryce Greene: Right.

So, Israel is-

first and foremost-

a settler society.

So, all those logics that we learned about with the imperialism,

when we learned about the Spanish in the New World

or the Portuguese, or the French, or the British,

they operate under those precise logics.

The movement of Zionism can trace its roots back to the late 1800s,

around 1880,

when European Jews were politically motivated to form their own state.

This was during the rise of nationalism in general

where people were starting to ethnically identify with the geographic area.

In the 1880s to right before World War I

the movement settled on this place called Palestine,

which was talked about as a traditional homeland for Jewish people.

But the Jewish diaspora in Europe

was completely separated from the Mizrahi Jews that still lived in Palestine.

But still, they viewed this land-

it was in their stories that were passed down-

as theirs.

And they viewed themselves as God’s chosen people.

Now, this wasn’t all Jews, of course.

Many Jews didn’t agree with this political project

of building a state and forming a military and what not.

But some did,

and they had the backing of the British

who wanted to solidify their hold in the Middle East

by having a state that they controlled, more or less,

or supported,

or were allied with.

And so, this mentality-

that they could go in and take the land-

was baked in from the beginning

regardless of who was there at the beginning.

The land of Palestine, of course, was inhabited by people.

The Zionists, in their writings

they explicitly said that

‘these people would have to go’

and that they didn’t really care how it happened

they just needed their homeland,

they just needed the the Holy Land to themselves.

And so, with this arrogance

the day to day interactions after the Nakba

after they expelled 750,000 Palestinians from their land in 1948

the day to day interactions have been colored by this ideology.

The state of Israel is driven by a logic of expansion.

So this means not only blatant land grabs like in 1967

but it also means slower land grabs, like settlers.

So they would expand settlements into these areas

and the settlers themselves of course

animated by this ideology

would be horrible to the Palestinians.

Shooting sprees just for fun,

all supported by the Israeli military,

they would go and burn down Palestinian olive trees,

they would go murder a child and then claim they had no idea who did it.

This was a regular thing.

And this is what colored the Palestinians’ resistance for so long.

And of course

if they weren’t being attacked by settlers,

if they were within this military occupation directly,

they would have to undergo checkpoints

arbitrary searches,

military violence that is uncontrollable.

It’s a really brutal situation.

This logic of the state

that they’re the chosen people who own this land

and can do whatever they want,

it gives the state the legitimacy

to enact these apartheid rules

to make separate roads for Palestinians,

to allow settlers to go crazy on Palestinian civilians

and of course, ultimately

to allow for the horrible wars that Israel launches on Palestine.

And especially this most recent

most brutal genocide.

And so all of that doesn’t happen in a vacuum.

All of the destruction we see on our screens today

is happening because of this ideology,

because of this framework

that puts Palestinians at the bottom of the totem pole

and that puts a certain group above all others.

Recently, Israel passed a national law

that officially defines the State of Israel

as the home of the Jewish people.

Not the home of its citizens,

not a state for everyone around the world,

but for Jewish people specifically.

And that means that

while Jewish citizens of course, of Israel

are treated as first class.

While non-Jewish citizens are treated as second class.

Even Jewish non-citizens of Israel

are treated better than the non-Jewish citizens of Israel

because they’ve expanded the ownership of the state,

or the state’s mandate,

to include everyone in the world who can claim a Jewish heritage.

Which is contrary to almost any other state in human history.

But again, this logic shows how much they’re willing to exclude Palestinians.

During the debates for this law

the Palestinians in the Israeli Knesset, the parliament,

the small faction that are able to get elected there,

they tried to include the language

that would make sure that Palestinians,

that non-Jewish citizens of Israel

were included in this rule

and they were rejected.

So, this is an explicitly ethno-supremacist declaration from the state of Israel.

As if you needed it written down.

The reality on the ground said it enough,

but they’re willing to write it down.

They’re willing to thumb their nose at international norms.

As long as the Americans let them do it,

they can do whatever they want.

They can say things like ‘the children of Gaza have brought this on themselves.’

They can say things like ‘the Hague will not stop us.’

They can do all that

because with the US military and empire on their side,

no one can really stand against them.

Again, that seems to be changing.

The world is no longer tolerating US hegemony, Israeli lawlessness,

and American people are starting to tolerate it a hell of a lot less too.

[00:41:19] Steven Grumbine: Everybody has grown up hearing about the Holocaust that occurred in Nazi Germany

and the horrors of Auschwitz

and all the other concentration camps and so forth

that were set up during the Nazi regime.

And it’s horrible.

I don’t think anybody would stand for genocide

for the Jews even,

for anyone.

It’s horrible,

abjectly horrible,

just straight up horrible.

That said, as I watch people use the term ‘Never Again’

and totally skip it on the Palestinians,

and watch the crocodile tears;

the outright fake cry-babying,

the cry-bullying,

the shaming that occurs

using these tropes to pull on your heart strings.

How does a sane person deal with that kind of gaslighting?

I mean, it is obviously [on its face] horrible

to think of any Holocaust

much less 8 million Jews killed

in one way, shape or form

during the Nazi regime.

But the leverage of that constant reminder

and the actual use of that as a cudgel

against anyone that says anything about anything that they do;

this weaponization of a really horrible situation

is being used to do the very same thing today.

What are your thoughts on that kind of cry-bullying?

[00:42:44] Bryce Greene: You’re going to hear some crazy things

come from people that you thought were your friends

or people you could trust.

You’re going to hear the media say the most off-the-wall things

that you could possibly imagine.

And you’re going to have to get used to all of it

because that’s just the world we live in.

You’re gonna have to listen to people

abuse the memory of the Holocaust

and use it to justify the unspeakable.

You’re gonna hear people

comparing the people protesting genocide

to black shirts.

You’re gonna hear people

claim that they are being threatened or under attack

when you say free Palestine.

You’re gonna hear all of that

but you just have to deal with it.

The only way to stay sane is to a inoculate yourself,

but also keep yourself busy.

It’s much easier to live with the horror of the world

when you know that you are doing something to try to end it.

It’s not everything,

you don’t know for certain what the fruits of your labor will be,

but you get to go to bed knowing that there will be some fruits of your labor.

That there is a labor that can bear fruit.

And knowing that,

and being around people who similarly understand the reality of the situation,

who are oriented to the realities of empire,

of Zionism,

of America,

of Israel,

of capitalism,

that’s definitely a far better way to stay sane.

You can joke around with people

who you know their heart is in the right place.

It’s much harder to joke around with people

when you know that they’re completely oblivious,

and it’s much harder to engage with them.

That’s just something that every organizer goes through,

watching people who aren’t engaged in the same struggles you are

go about their day like it’s normal.

Back when I was in classes,

[before I was banned]

I was sitting there in class watching the news go by,

watching hospital get blown up,

watching a neighborhood get blown up,

just scrolling, then looking up having to answer a question in class

and just trying to code switch.

And doing that enough will make you crazy.

But it’s getting down to talking to organizers

and with like minded people who are fighting the good fight.

That’s the only way you’re going to even come close

to keeping your head on straight.

[00:44:56] Steven Grumbine: That brings me to the final thing I really want to talk about

and I hope I didn’t bury the lede by leaving this last.

But I wanted folks to hear it as the exclamation point

because people run around with that ‘I just voted’ sticker on their forehead

like they’ve done something.

Like somehow or another

playing in the Oligarch Olympics

they have done something.

And you’ve already expressed,

whether explicitly or indirectly,

the fact that we’re literally living in a Biden funded genocide right now.

I’m not here to stump for Trump

or stump for Biden.

I’m here for the things I’m here for,

which are anti-capitalist,

which are anti-war,

which are for the working class,

the people,

ending empire,

doing this that and the other,

and lo and behold Bryce Greene gets arrested.

And we’ve seen videos,

we’ve seen thousands and thousands of cops beating people up in the streets. George Floyd,

the list of police brutality is so ridiculously long.

How do you even remember them all?

It’s like if you’ve seen one

you’ve seen a thousand.

Tell us about your experience with getting arrested on campus

[00:46:08] Bryce Greene: You are right,

I was arrested on campus.

I was arrested on the second day of police violence at IU.

We started the encampment on Thursday [that’s April 25th].

Well, hours before,

the school had met and changed the policy for putting structures in the field.

Prior to that, you were allowed to put up tents,

you just weren’t allowed to stay the night.

But the administration got together in the middle of the night.

They had heard our announcement for a rally

that they linked to these other encampments around the country

and they said “NO, you’re not allowed to do that.”

After we set up the tents,

they then sent in some local IUPD, [the campus police]

who then told us to leave,

and then they sent in the state troopers as backup.

The local Bloomington police seemed to not want to get involved,

but the state troopers came in.

Again, with all that military getup that I was talking about.

And they cleared the camp, but then they left

the next day, people came back and set up the camp again,

and it was fine.

And the day after that, the state troopers came back,

and this is the day I got arrested.

I was on the field with the bull horn,

I later learned that the police scanner actually had my description

and labeled me an instigator.

You know how it goes…

‘a black man with an afro and black shorts and a blue shirt,’

and so I have a recording of that audio.

But I was arrested,

and it seemed that it was very clear that they were targeting me

because I was hanging behind

trying not to be arrested.

I was helping people up and telling them like

‘okay, go get some water’

like ‘it’s okay, they got the tent, fall back.’

But an officer locked eyes with me

and then I started backpedaling.

I was like ‘this isn’t good,’

but then he pointed at me,

he started chasing me, pushed through the crowd.

And then he pointed at me, he said “don’t run!”

And as someone who doesn’t want to die, I did not run.

And I was arrested.

So, I was arrested

and they took us in for processing along with

I think, something like 30+ other people.

While in processing, they gave me the letter that stated

that I was banned from IU Bloomington campus for a year

from 2024 to 2025.

I asked them, I said

“Hey, you do you guys want to change this to 2024

so I’m only banned for a day?”

Well, they said “No.”

But later, after I got released

after i got processed, booked, and all that stuff;

after I got released, I get the sheet back

they change it from 2025.

They cross it out [and this is in the paper]

and they make it 2029.

So I get a five year ban.

So, I’m banned from campus for five years.

I’m still technically a student,

I’m still able to enroll in classes, technically.

But I am not able to go [physically] on the campus

without risking a level six felony.

So, that’s one of the ways in which the university

and our American institutions support Israel.

By punishing the people who speak out against Israel,

who speak out against America’s unfettered and unconditional support for genocide,

they arrest them, then they ban them for five years.

It’s very obvious that they want to discourage people,

discourage their students from engaging in any organizing,

and that’s a tragedy.

Because we’re fighting against some of the most horrific issues in our time,

and our university is directly connected to it

through study abroad programs,

partnerships with companies that help Israeli apartheid.

I mean, we’re one of Lockheed Martin’s partnership institutions.

We’re complicit in this genocide,

and the administration is punishing people like me

and others who speak out against it.

[00:49:52] Steven Grumbine: I don’t know if you’re familiar with him

I assume you are, but I’ll start that you aren’t

the guy’s name is Davarian Baldwin.

He’s a brilliant scholar

he wrote a great book about the In the Shadow of the Ivory Tower

about univerCITIES,

and how universities are the largest landowners in communities

and they’re buying up and gentrifying regions

and they’re making them impossible for the local folks to afford to live

and simultaneously building up police forces and everything else

to, kind of, keep the locals out.

While simultaneously selling the benefits to all the rich kids, for the campus life

and all the while you’re experiencing what you just said

that these are nonprofit institutions

that can bring in partnerships with folks like Boeing [and others]

to get R and D done, for tax free

while they’re getting huge grant money from the federal government

at no cost to them.

Because I’m an MMT podcaster, I’ve got to be clear:

NOT taxpayer dollars.

The idea here is that

these universities are literally cleaning cash.

They are literally an entity enabling the worst of the capital order

through these militarized research and development grants

that allow students to get plugged in with their internships

with these large military contractors.

Basically, the companies that are enabling genocide

Your final thoughts

[00:51:25] Bryce Greene: Yeah, I’m glad you point out the taxpayer thing.

I mean, it’s a common talking point

that our taxpayer dollars are going to support x, y, and z

but MMTers know a little bit better.

It’s more complicated than that

but I mean that it’s an irrelevant point

because the taxpayer dollar argument

is really just meant to convey a sense of complicity

which is very real

regardless of the mechanics used to enforce it.

And so, this university gets a lot of federal funding,

gets a lot of money and then develops its research capabilities

and develops a student body.

And then they’re channeling that

and they’re aiming it to the military industrial complex

to this machinery of war

and death

and destruction.

And so, it’s a really perverse way of laundering public money

and public funds and resources

to some of the worst actors in the entire world,

that’s really what we’re fighting against.

There’s been a push for universities to become less like universities

and more profit driven, numbers driven.

More like real estate companies

that own a lot of land and are evicting people,

or more like hedge funds

that have a lot of investments that they need to take care of

or just corporations in general.

Where they view students not as pupils

to be nurtured and developed and sent into the world,

but as potential labor stock

that they can increase their human capital

so they can be of more value and generate more wealth.

It’s a pollution of the ideal of a university.

What’s more troubling

is that it’s been integrated with this whole Israel project.

One of the partnerships that Indiana University has

in addition to becoming more corporate and neoliberal

is also more imperialistic.

They’re partnered with Israel On Campus Coalition

which is a lobby group

aimed at promoting Israeli points of view and policies on college campuses.

It’s as blatant as that,

but the university doesn’t see any problem

and apparently the public doesn’t either,

with all of these institutions being connected

to this enterprise of genocide, and militarism, and war making.

So, all of these incentives are pushing the university in this direction,

and it takes some internal pressure

some contradiction

that’ll push the university out of these partnerships

out of this direction

and to something that’s more human centered

and something that can really change the world for the better.

It’s high minded when I say things like that

but I mean, that’s really what it is

this is the future of humanity

this is what we’re gonna send our children

and our children’s children into

and I think it’s worth giving some thought

and doing some work

to ensure that they are not living in a dystopian hellscape.

One in which Gaza has been wiped off the map

in which our money has been used to do it.

I mean that’s a depressing future

[00:54:11] Steven Grumbine: Bryce, you’ve been wonderful

I want to give you the final word

I did my best to try and give well rounded questions

to draw out the most rich stories

but your last thoughts

anything that we missed

that you would like people to come away with after hearing this

[00:54:27] Bryce Greene: Well,I know your audience knows most of the facts of the case

they know that Biden’s lying

they know that there is no real concern from Biden

all these stories about the concern about the genocide

telling Israel to calm down.

It’s all fake.

If he wanted Israel to slow down ,

he would stop the weapons.

Simple as that .

All of these people who are crying crocodile tears over anti-semitism,

and how some students on campus

aren’t feeling safe because of the protest,

It’s all lies.

It’s all nonsense

You’re gonna hear a lot of that.

Don’t believe it for a second,

you all know what’s up.

Keep fighting the good fight,

support your local encampment.

They need food,

they need guidance and support,

they need the money to feed themselves

and to do all this other stuff.

Go out and do something.

There’s a local organization that you probably heard of,

go join it.

Or if you haven’t heard of one

go find out what your local organizations are and join them.

Develop these institutions to ensure that when a shock happens

you’re able to capitalize on it for real change.

The whole world changes because people [you’ve never heard of] decide one day

‘hey, this is not good, this is enough and we want to change it’

if you want to support our encampment

I can send you a link to a PayPal or Venmo

[00:55:42] Steven Grumbine: Absolutely.

We have an extras part of this

and we also have show notes

curated, edited transcripts

so whatever you want to put in there, we’ll make sure it gets in there

[00:55:53] Bryce Greene: Ok, absolutely

I’ll send that over to you

[00:55:55] Steven Grumbine: You got it man

well listen, Bryce it has been an amazing talk

I really appreciate the time you took today

I hope I can have you back on

Last time I talked to you, it was about Ukraine on Status Coup

it’s nice to have you over here on our podcast

Macro N Cheese.

I really appreciate your work

you’re a voice of reason.

And I gotta tell you, you gave me hope

which I have been starving of.

Having not had any hope at all

but just hearing how you interacted with the Zionists that came into the camp

and just said ‘Hey listen, maybe you can hear something different’

That really was powerful to me

so I want to thank you.

[00:56:34] Bryce Greene: It’s possible

it’s possible.

Most of them are insane, let me be clear

so be safe

but you know, every so often

someone is actually eager and curious.

[00:56:45] Steven Grumbine: Well, you gave me a lot of hope sir

I appreciate it

Alright folks, my name is Steve Grumbine.

I’m the host of Macro N Cheese

this is a part of Real Progressives which is a 501c3 nonprofit

all donations which is what we live by the way are tax deductible

so go ahead if you’re interested

and you believe in the work that we’re doing

and want to support us

by all means, we are not going to turn our nose up

we need all the donations we can get

and also please support these students

and take a look at our show notes

we’ll be giving you links to be able to help those encampments

and without further ado, we bid you adieu

from Macro N Cheese, Bryce, myself

We Are Outta Here!